compraventahandpan.org (warning)

[Guitargonaut]

Cheers for your compassion Guitargonaut!! It is admirable!!

I've traveled most of latin america and seen with my own two eyes much of the social and economic disparity and inequality in many countries of both central and south america. The middle class hardly exists in some places. It's enough to provoke more than one tear as well as feel deeply blessed to be lucky enough to be born in a land with greater economic opportunities. Interestingly though, some of the most friendly, honest, and generous people I have ever met were also the very poorest people I have ever met....both in the first and third world. Last I checked, there are also just as many saints from the third world as from the first world, if not more so.


I didn't mean to imply any moral superiority of the so-called "first world" over any place else. Rather I meant to demonstrate that the social and political circumstances, among a sundry other things, are beyond the fullest comprehension of any non-native. In a more extreme sense, the biological nature of the human experience is such that no one person can fully empathize with any other; there are simply too many individual moments in time throughout one's life where one undergoes formative experiences to try to account for any particular action or set of actions. Faced with this impossibility of complete empathy, we're left only with language and action to go on. In this sense, I agree that one's words and actions are the only means that we have to make any "judgements" at all. But it does not follow from this that we ought to judge. One's communication and action does not a "res ipsa loquitur" argument make.

Along these lines, it's a non-sequitur to suggest a correlation between poverty and righteous, contentment or happiness (which is empirically defined by brain chemistry that can be cooked up under many circumstances, not just the warm and fuzy ones; happiness also no longer has an equivalent in the philosophical sciences as most of the operational definitions have proven demonstratably fallacious). This kind of fallacy of argumentation is called "argument ad lazarum" This correlative seems to circumnavigate the heart of my pathos appeal, which comes from the deep metaphysical understanding of unity, the determinism of materialist philosophy and a humanistic injection of empathy. The bottom line is that social animals operating under the influence of deterministic physical forces (which we all implicitly trust when we turn the ignition in our cars or step on an airplane) the only proper response is compassion.

I try to seek compassion as much as possible in life, but also not use it to hide from the truth of reality or history.

Given what I've written above, one could argue there are different layers of truth. I happen to be of the mind that the highest layer of truth is the interconnectedness of all things and the illusion of the self is just a matter of atomic scale and naturally selective forces. Compassion seems the only choice no matter more individuated or circumstantial truths may suggest.

We are all animals on this planet, and many of our animal and emotional instincts play out in every facet of our lives, no matter what country we live in. In the face of predatory intentions, compassion is usually worthless at doing anything but getting eaten, or in the case of MANY BUSINESSES WORLDWIDE that are predatory, getting screwed out of our money.

Agreed, but we don't know that this is a predatory business.

There are just as many scammers in the States and Europe as in anywhere else. Actions speak louder than words and the people on this forum remember those actions in order to warn the newbies of the present and future so they don't get screwed. That is one of the main points of this forum, to share information!

I respect the way this community looks out for its own tremendously.

Everyone has problems, everywhere, but blaming shabby business morals on a sympathy provoking sap story is pretty lame in my opinion no matter where you come from, what your family history or genetics maybe. Sometimes, the most compassionate thing we can do in life is draw boundaries, as there is no way to get through to a person or business otherwise.

In one sense, one can be held accountable for their actions, but in the sense that we are all just atomic particles obeying laws beyond the illusion of our free will, we cannot. I draw compassion from the latter sense... which I see as more universally true than the petty dramas of confused little organic computers.

As for clean slates, they come much easier with
1. answering questions on the past
2. admittance of the previous problems
3. apologies
I haven't seen any of these actions in this case or in the case of at least one other builder in the First world with a similar history.

While studying to be a general contractor years ago, I will never forget the words of the teacher on the final day:

"There are people that RUN businesses and people that BUILD them. People that run them will do whatever it takes to make another dollar, including cutting corners, overcharging, and doing a shabby job. They rarely get ahead and struggle from one customer to the next. People that build businesses on the other hand put love and dedication into their work, do whatever it takes to make sure their customers are happy, and go out of their way to do the best job possible for the most fair and reasonable price. Their customers share their experiences and recommend them to their friends and given their business is in a good market, it will often grow as much as they desire."

This is a great differentiation. I will remember this.

I salute you for taking a chance on this builder and by my account, he has scored a solid positive public point as you seem a very happy customer that received a pan for apparently a great price! Almost a third of what some of their previous customers paid in fact. It only does so much to counteract or balance the momentum of history however.

Thank you for sharing your account but honestly, I think your wasting your time trying to erase everyone's memories by asking for compassion. Perhaps a bit more meaningful action would be posting a video of the pan, and letting the steel speak for itself. I hope that there are many people happily behind you and that each of them posts here about their experience as you have! I suspect that after a long list of happy customers, honesty, and moral business practices, the world's first impression may wear so thin it hardly exists.

Im not trying to erase anyone's memories. I mean only to account for my experience ordering a Sagittarius and to point out that in a certain light, we can find compassion even as these folks try our patience and values.

I can only hope so.

[phoenix]

Occam's Razor Guitargonaout

[CarolW]

What I feel I can't know is, if there is some kind of mob action going on causing a need to hide identity.

Difficult to do that and conduct business as well.

Are we talking about some kind of Colombian mafia drug ring handpan connection thang now, with the Gomez's as helpless victims ?

Yes. How possible or likely that is, I haven't the slightest idea. Or it might be something entirely different. I find it impossible (for me) to imagine or visualize a reason to be so extremely evasive, deceitful and rude. I can only admit there COULD be some unimaginable (to me) reason for that behavior.

Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:48:19 (PDT)

[broussel2]

I'm gonna have to quote myself (as I started this thread) -- this is not a thread about Sagittarius but about compraventahandpan.org -- which may be related to Sagittarius... The thread about Sagittarius as handpan makers (whether you like them or not) is here : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8440

For the record, we are talking here about a handpan/tank drum resale business. It is not located as far as I know, and if they obviously share a mailing list with Sagittarius Handpan, the relation between them is unclear. One thing is certain : this website is not about building any handpan, it is about creating a position for themselves as an intermediary on the handpan secondary market.

By the way, the Sagittarius website (http://www.s*gittariushandpan.com/) still states "Copyright © 2013 Sagittarius. All rights reserved. United States of America" so considering them as located elsewhere is irrelevant.

[Guitargonaut]

I'm gonna have to quote myself (as I started this thread) -- this is not a thread about Sagittarius but about compraventahandpan.org -- which may be related to Sagittarius... The thread about Sagittarius as handpan makers (whether you like them or not) is here : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8440

For the record, we are talking here about a handpan/tank drum resale business. It is not located as far as I know, and if they obviously share a mailing list with Sagittarius Handpan, the relation between them is unclear. One thing is certain : this website is not about building any handpan, it is about creating a position for themselves as an intermediary on the handpan secondary market.

By the way, the Sagittarius website (http://www.s*gittariushandpan.com/) still states "Copyright © 2013 Sagittarius. All rights reserved. United States of America" so considering them as located elsewhere is irrelevant.

This is kind of like saying the US corporations are actually in Bermuda, just because they are registered there with a PO box in order to avoid taxes.

[broussel2]

This is kind of like saying the US corporations are actually in Bermuda, just because they are registered there with a PO box in order to avoid taxes.

Well, I have trouble understanding why you decide to put them somewhere else than where they declare to be located and subsequently ask for compassion. Then they could as well be in Columbia... or in Qatar. Don't you trust their declarations ?

[omrhythm]

Agreed, but we don't know that this is a predatory business.

Have you done your research in the other threads about the history of Sagittarius and HandpanUS? It was once a predatory business, in the opinion of quite a few. Please make sure you are fully aware of what they were charging, for what quality, for how long. Now he/they have come forth to clear their name, change their name, and start operating a business (hopefully) with better integrity and ethics involved, attempting to clearly separate themselves from past actions, as if they were carried out by someone else. And only responding with "I don't have time for this, I have to hammer" to every single pertinent question that we want transparency on.

If you got charged $2800 for a bird bath/prototype status handcan, would you be so philosophically compassionate? What about if you bought an untuned replica off of ebay for $1500? Something unlike what you got from them now. That's what they sold for over 2 years to build their business upon.

I appreciate that they have a really fair price now, and I am glad that the quality is getting better and people enjoy them. I only hope they can reconcile their past with some community service showing us that they really care, and are not here to just take our money. That's all I ask for.

Brussels, sorry to once again be off topic. I agree, this should not be about SAgittarius here, but so it is for the moment. Maybe the admins can split the thread.

This marketing website should not even be talked about. It honestly looks like a Marketing 101 excersize for some entry level college kids, who just chose this genre because they like handpans. I can't even believe that it is real. It is so poorly thought out, but hey, I give them credit for yet another person or group of people who want to join the "milkers" and make a buck of the backs of those of us who love these things, for no reason other than to exploit. Clearly no one needs help finding a new home for their second hand handpan. The Swap and Sale section of this forum does a fine job at placing second hand handpans into the hands of those eagerly waiting the most. Ebay also does a pretty good job, though Swap and Sale is still the best place to determine if its a scam or if its in tune, stolen etc.

[don marco]

Sorry Broussels to hijack your thread on the website. The whole idea of it is hilarious to anyone that has the slightest clue about this market.

Also, sorry in advance for adding one more philosophical topic to the mix.... I hope you find it is just as pertinent to the website that was the inspiration of the thread.

Guitargonaut, you bring up many great points that I fully agree with. I don't draw any assumptions from your words, only inspiration to share my own. Please forgive me for pointing particularly to your request for compassion, as there was no offense toward you personally. The request does hit a personal button. I suspect we have very similar views on philosophy, and it seems you are also well educated in Eastern Religion and the idea of Anatta that you eloquently explain with erudite literary ability. You make a very true point that we all come from numerous moments in life, and many unseen forces. Compassion at all avenues in life is indeed a beautiful thing

How compassion is expressed is a different topic, perhaps one more appropriate for the random cafe. However, here we are. When the great forces of the universe are used as an excuse for immoral behavior is where my personal compassion is expressed as a necessary boundary. I feel that sometimes creating boundaries is the most compassionate thing we can do in life, as all action come with Karma, even no action. In the case of this forum, some have shared their own opinions on boundaries as they had compassion for the rest of us. Like you, I strive for compassion for all, but perhaps unlike you, I chose to consciously express it in different ways, some of which include drawing clear boundaries in life against people that don't have positive, empathetic or compassionate intentions.

Much of religious dogma is steeped in a momentum of denying the self in glorification and worship of something much greater than us. The early Hindu's, Buddhist, and Jainist that are responsible for this idea of Anatta often lived a life of complete physical sacrifice. While I feel there is a great value in this practice and this idea of Anatta, particularly for someone whose ego is enormously out of balance, I also feel that the idea can lead to just as much imbalance away from the practical grounded here and now. It can so easily become an excuse to embrace an illusion of continuing to be the good person we all hope we are inside instead of facing the reality of our own actions and accepting ourselves for who we really are, what we have really done, and how we really want to act out our greatest good in the future..... I think what strikes a chord with me, which again has nothing to do with you personally, is when someone creates negative karma over and over and over again and then instead of dealing with it, facing it, or admitting it, they try to hide by a spiritual request for compassion and sympathy, hoping everyone will just forget all of the things they have done and clean their slate.

While I agree you that 99.9% of action on earth isn't from a source of freewill, I would never say all of it, nor would I say that an incredible amount of action isn't capable of being from a place of freewill and truly consciously Witnessing of ourselves and the forces around us as we act, especially when a mirror such as this forum and this thread is placed in front of our face to view.

When it comes to business, which in my own opinion is a spiritual practice like any other, there is a side of the story that is grounded in a very real here and now across many experiences. In an appropriate analogy for this discussion, perhaps the modern day corporation is the best example of my perspective on the idea of Anatta in business and my point in this post and the previous one. By eliminating the self, or one person's responsibility, the people of the company now have an imaginary scapegoat to blame their actions on however positive or negative they may be. And to bring my rambling full circle to credit and respect Broussel for the thread, I suspect the same is just as true for this completely pointless sketchy website that he started this thread with after being solicited for it without his desire. Interesting that it brings us all back full circle to the topic of ol' saggi.

Yes, our personal sense of self is an illusion that each of us creates, however our actions are observed by all of those around us. In this industry and on this forum, it is a global perspective across 1000s of people. Whether a person is the sum of their actions or not is irrelevant, they are however a crossing ground of the karma from those actions whether they know how real their self is or how real any of the other unforeseen forces in this universe appear to be. I salute you for your good karma, positive intentions, and what it reflects on Sagittarius. It is an influential and documented experience by many. I also compassionately don't want to see you exhaust yourself trying to clean up someone else's mess however. It will play out how it plays out whatever the organic computers jabber about.

Wishing much love, light, and mindfulness

As for compraventahandpan.org

[Guitargonaut]

This is kind of like saying the US corporations are actually in Bermuda, just because they are registered there with a PO box in order to avoid taxes.

Well, I have trouble understanding why you decide to put them somewhere else than where they declare to be located and subsequently ask for compassion. Then they could as well be in Columbia... or in Qatar. Don't you trust their declarations ?

My Saggi arrived from Colombia. The business may be registered in the United States but it would appear as though the production occurs in South America.

[Guitargonaut]

Sorry Broussels to hijack your thread on the website. The whole idea of it is hilarious to anyone that has the slightest clue about this market.

Oh my goodness! I'm so new to the forums I hadn't even considered the etiquette of hijackings. Sorry on my part too!

Don Marco,

what a BEAUTIFUL response. I agree with you on every point. I do see the distinction between the spiritual pragmatism needed to function in material space, versus the sort of glorified ideals that might be used to hide behind. You have reminded me of their importance... as a performance artist, I can get very carried away in my circus playtime world... and as a musician I tend to space out a lot. For bringing me back down to earth and giving my feet a nice pillow for such a soft landing, I salute you sir! Grand Merci. And such eloquence

If ever there is a discussing about East Asian spirituality in the Random Cafe, clue me in! (random note, I tend to gravitate towards the existentially absurdists tendencies of the early Taoists, rather than the traditions that insists on ritualized assassination of the ego; I think the ego is part and parcel of the supreme identity, tao, holy spirit, Buddha nature or whatever you want to call it)

I think I meant only to point out that we are a mere forum, and although in some sense act as the vanguard for the high moral standards in the handpan community, cannot expect to be able to intervene concretely in such business practices with the kind of boisterous huffing and puffing surrounding this new website. I think the business plan is going to fall on its face. If it helps some people get a handpan who are too lazy to find this community and the legitimate channels... I guess that's maybe a good thing??? Anyway, it doesn't really do us any good to spend our precious hand pan technique and discourse allotments on worrying about this laughable catastrophe. We can however zoom out to the point where we see unity and the divine absurdity that abounds, and as you did when you signed your last post... laugh about this in good humor. We can compassionately condemn this website as you suggest, while saying a genuinely compassionate prayer for whoever is trying to capitalize on the handpan black market, right?